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Bull Shit! Jim B. AKA Pennycross Lectures Tabacco About US History 101 - Do Research Before You Lecture Tabacco! - RI10
posted Tuesday, 4 July 2006
Bull Shit! Jim B. AKA Pennycross
Lectures Tabacco About US
History 101 - Do Research Before
You Lecture Tabacco! - RI10
Addendum: Apology
I wrote this apology after I had already completed my Post. So removing the harsh rhetoric would be disingenuous on my part. But if I had it to do over, I would be a lot gentler in my rebuke – but PennyCross deserves a Rebuke for his lack of Research, if nothing else.
I begin by apologizing to Jim B./PennyCross. Jim B. is a Good Guy! Lots of his stuff is Right On Target. Occasionally he is Dead Wrong. This is one of those instances. I am too cross (no pun intended) with him in this Post, but he issued a Direct Challenge to Tabacco with his “Tobacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson.”
Dem’s Fighting Words! If you say it, you’d better be on firm footing. If you are Right, I will apologize and thank you for correcting me. But if you say stuff like
“While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed
I am required to stomp on you like I would an ant or a QuasiCon. If I do it to QuasiCons when they spout BS, I must in good conscience do the same to a basically Good Guy and Liberal. So, with humble apologies to Jim B./PennyCross, “Gentlemen, take your places!”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebuke For Uppityness & Lack of Research
There is no end to BULLSHIT! This is merely the latest entry. And PennyCross aka Jim B. calls it “Tabacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson”.
Jim B./PennyCross objects to Tabacco’s conclusion that the U.S. acted in a racist manner in dropping Nukes on Yellow Japanese and not on Caucasian Germans. Let’s revisit WWII and see what we find.
PennyCross’ Assertion / Tabacco’s Comments on his Blog:
Sunday, 2 July 2006
Amnesty for insurgents that killed American's is wrong
"What’s the difference between Iraqi insurgents and the Germans and Japanese and all the people we’ve forgiven?" Republican Ted Stevens. Could the answer be that those pardons happened after the wars were over?
"For
read more »
Last Updated: Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:14 A GMT-06 :: Comments/Trackback (1-0)
Tabacco made this comment,
Could it be that those people were Caucasian?
The Japanese soon became our 2nd best ally and repudiated having their own military. Japanese certainly admire White Americans and eventually were treated like Europeans.
Since this Terrorist War will NEVER END! Remember, no organization or country can declare the "War is Over!"; therefore it is OK to never give Amnesty to these African or Brown-skinned Islamic peoples. Very clever these Caucasians.
I refer you to the fact that Harry Truman and FDR both deliberately avoided bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki to keep it "pristine". They concentrated on Germany so they wouldn't have to NUKE CAUCASIANS. When the German Surrender was declared, it was a matter of DAYS before they Nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki. All damages could correctly be attributed to the A-Bomb, not prior bombing. If you have a toy like the A-Bomb, you need to deploy it on Human Beings to determine the "Real" damage it can inflict. Mind you, not on Caucasian Human Beings, but yellow Japanese were an acceptable experimentation.
That's why they knocked the Germans out first! Hitler didn't attack Pearl Harbor; the Japanese did! Caucasians can always forgive other Caucasians; but they rarely forgive darker peoples.
Tabacco
comment added :: 2nd July 2006, 10:14 GMT-06 :: http://tabacco.blog-city.com/
PennyCross' Bullshit Excerpt:
The real reason why the bombs were dropped on the Japanese
had little to do with race. The decision was made because the Japanese military had decided to defend the homeland islands to the last man, woman, and child left. A modest estimate made by the American military estimated that if an invasion of Japan was necessary in order to bring about a surrender 1 million American lives, and probably 20 times that number of Japanese civilian lives would have been lost.
Also remember that at the end of the war there were no German cities left to bomb that had not been totally destroyed by the British American and Russian air forces. While
at the same time the Japanese homeland was
unscathed.
I wonder if Jim B. thinks Tabacco is stupid or just lazy (you folks know of course that I am Black; and we all know how lazy Black folks are – Right?)
"While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed."
I guess Jim B. thinks I’m lazy! So on July 4, 2006 I am forced to give Jim B./PennyCross a “REAL HISTORY LESSON 102”. All Jim B. had to do was type into his Browser window “World War II+Japanese Cities+damages” and he could have published this Article without the concomitant REBUKE from Tabacco for his uneducated or disingenuous – take your pick – BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA!
Lesson I: From this Search alone we learn that “67 Japanese cities were firebombed in World War II”. But Jim B. says, “While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed.”
I would love to see where Jim B. gets his history information! Wouldn’t you? On second thought, scratch that. I’m not into scatological research.
So Jim B., answer these 2 questions:
1- How does 67 Japanese cities firebombed by U.S.A. qualify as "unscathed"?
2- How do you account for the fact that a small area country such as Japan had 67 cities firebombed, but 2 and only 2 cities - Hiroshima & Nagasaki - were left "unscathed" so all damages caused by A-bombs could be positively identified? Explain why!
Complete Text of Jim B./PennyCross’ Message to Tabacco:
Tobacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson. As an American of European decent (and I might add I am proud of that fact) I do find it deplorable that Japanese Americans were put in concentration camps while German American's were not. There were however thousands of German prisoners of war that were brought to the U.S. and put in concentration camps@. I do feel the incarceration of Japanese Americans was blatant racism in action. That is the only historical rationale I can find for it. In fact the most decorated American Army combat unit in WWII was made up of Japanese Americans fighting oddly enough in Europe. The real reason why the bombs were dropped on the Japanese had little to do with race. The decision was made because the Japanese military had decided to defend the homeland islands to the last man, woman, and child left. A modest estimate made by the American military estimated that if an invasion of Japan was necessary in order to bring about a surrender 1 million American lives, and probably 20 times that number of Japanese civilian lives would have been lost. The American military had just fought it's way through the islands of the pacific culminating with Okinowa in which Japanese civilians by the thousands committed suicide over surrender. And the Japanese military fought to the last man. It was not until after the bombs were dropped with the threat that more would be dropped that the Japanese surrendered. Also remember that at the end of the war there were no German cities left to bomb that had not been totally destroyed by the British American and Russian air forces. While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed. Research the fire-bombing of Dresden to comprehend the destruction of German cities. I find it sad that you interject race into all your analysis. That shows shallow thinking. The causes for WWII were many and they were complicated. Remember that the beginning of the war in the pacific was started when Asians attacked Caucasians at Pearl Harbor. Not the other way around. Until Pearl Harbor America was more than content to let Japan go it's merry way with it's greater Asian co-prosperity league. Japan entered the war because it needed oil and the U.S. threatened to cut off it's oil supply. Once again nothing to do with race. Also remember that the Japanese invaded China, Mongolia, the Phillipines, and our own Alutian Islands among other places, and in doing so slaughtered millions of other Asians. Analyze the rape of Nanking or the sacking of Manila in juxtaposition to your theory about race. Also remember that Germany waged war against other caucasians in Europe as well as the Soviet Union. It's estimated that the war cost the Soviets 10 million men. WWII was fought primarily for land and power. Even if you take into consideration Hitler's genocide aginst European and Soviet Jews the Germans never made an issue of skin color. Jews obviously are white caucasian. Hitler made an issue about German's being a master race superior to other all other races including other caucasians. The reason amnesty for Iraq insurgents is a stupid idea is not because of racial issues. The reason it is a stupid idea, is because it would put thousands of insurgents back into the streets where they will take up arms again against our troops. It would be the equivalent of arming and letting go the thousands of WWII German prisoners of war that we had in U.S. concentration camps. Pretty stupid idea don't you think? After we bring our troops home would be the time for amnesty. Also I hate to break your bubble bubba but the word caucasian that you use with so much disdain is derived from the word caucasoid which means a member of the human race that are light skinned people from Europe, North Africa, eastern Asia, and India. Millions of Arabs also originated from these areas. Gee think they might be caucasians. So much for the race monkey you have on your back.
http://pennycross.blog-city.com/
@ Question: Were “thousands of Japanese prisoners of war that were brought to the U.S. and put in concentration camps”. You have already acknowledged that German-Americans were not subjected to the same insulting behavior we displayed against the Japanese-Americans. I wonder what the difference was? (Aside to Readers: No I don’t wonder!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II
Bombing of Tokyo in World War II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The U.S. bombing of Tokyo during World War II took place between 1942 and 1945.
Early Raids
B-29 bombers were used to drop hundreds of
thousands of tons of explosives onto Japanese
cities during the war.
The first raid on Tokyo was the Doolittle Raid of April 18, 1942 when sixteen B-25 Mitchells were launched from the USS Hornet (CV-8) to attack targets including Yokohama and Tokyo and then fly on to airfields in China. The raids were a significant propaganda victory. Launched prematurely, none of the attacking aircraft reached the designated airfields, either crashing or ditching (except for one aircraft which landed in the Soviet Union, where the crew was interned). Two crews were captured by the Japanese.
The key development for the bombing of Japan was the B-29, which had an operational range of 1500 miles (2,400 km); almost 90% of the bombs dropped on the home islands of Japan were delivered by this type of bomber (147,000 short tons, 133,000 metric tons). The initial raids were carried out by the Twentieth Air Force operating out of mainland China in Operation Matterhorn under XX Bomber Command, but was supplemented in November by the activation of XXI Bomber Command based in the Northern Marianas. The B-29s of XX Bomber Command were transferred to XXI Bomber Command in the spring of 1945 and based on Guam.
The Twentieth Air Force was commanded by directly by Army Air Forces' chief General Henry Arnold to prevent control of strategic airpower from falling under either Nimitz' or MacArthur's command. Arnold, however, had suffered four heart attacks and finally gave over command on July 16, 1945, to General Curtis LeMay. The military services reached a compromise on unity of command issues with the Joint Chiefs (including Arnold) retaining control of the strategic air forces through a new command, the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific, commanded by General Carl Spaatz. LeMay became Spaatz's chief of staff on August 2, 1945, and the Twentieth Air Force was then commanded by Lt.Gen. Nathan Twining.
The first raid by B-29s on Japan came from China on June 15, 1944. The planes took off from Chengdu, over 1500 miles away. This first raid was also not particularly damaging to Japan. Only forty-seven of the sixty-eight B–29s airborne hit the target area; four aborted with mechanical problems, four crashed, six jettisoned their bombs because of mechanical difficulties, and others bombed secondary targets or targets of opportunity. Only one B–29 was lost to enemy aircraft. The first raid from the south was on November 24, 1944 when 88 aircraft bombed Tokyo. The bombs were dropped from around 30,000 feet (10,000 m) and it is estimated that only around 10% of the bombs hit designated targets.
The mainland China option was never a satisfactory arrangement because not only were the Chinese airbases difficult to supply via the Hump from India, but the B-29s operating from them could only reach Japan if they substituted some of the bomb load for extra fuel tanks in the bomb-bays. When Admiral Chester Nimitz's island-hopping campaign captured islands close enough to Japan to be within the range of B-29s, the Twentieth Air Force was assigned to XXI Bomber Command which organized a much more effective bombing campaign of the Japanese home islands. Based in the Marianas (Guam, Saipan, and Tinian) the B-29s were now able to carry their full bomb loads.
As in Europe, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) tried daylight precision bombing. However, it proved to be impossible due to the weather around Japan, as bombs dropped from a great height were tossed about by high winds. General LeMay, commander of XXI Bomber Command, instead switched to mass firebombing night attacks, from altitudes ranging from 5,000 to 7,000 feet, on the major conurbations of Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, and Kobe. Despite limited early success, LeMay was determined to use such bombing tactics against the vulnerable Japanese cities. Attacks on strategic targets also continued in lower-level daylight raids. The most devastating attacks, even more so than the well-known nuclear attacks, were the fire-bombing campaigns against Japanese cities.
Firebombing
Aftermath of the firebombing
The first firebombing raid was on Kobe on February 3, 1945, and following its relative success the USAAF continued the tactic. Japanese cities were susceptible to such attack, but the most favorable conditions for success were areas with few firebreaks and high surface winds. Much of the armor and defensive weaponry of the bombers was also removed to allow increased bomb loads, but ultimately loads were increased by the use of low altitudes for fuel conservation, with individual aircraft bomb loads increasing from 2.6 tons per plane in March to 7.3 tons in August.
The first such raid on Tokyo was on the night of February 23–24 when 174 B-29s destroyed around one square mile (~2.56 km2) of the city. Following on that success 334 B-29s took off from the Mariana Islands on the night of March 9–10 heading for Tokyo. After 2 hours of bombardment the wooden city of Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. These fires were so hot they would literally ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. What was particularly horrifying was a lot of the women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like igniting a wick on a candle to start consuming the flame. The aftermath of the incendiary bombings lead to an estimated 100,000 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devasting single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Around 16 square miles (41 km2) of the city was destroyed in the fire storm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. In the following two weeks there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km2) in total at a cost of 22 aircraft. There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26.
The firebomb raids were not the only raids on Tokyo; there were more regular raids using conventional high explosives. With the capture of Okinawa, the Eighth Air Force was transferred there from Europe and began its own raids. Monthly tonnage dropped on Japan had increased from 13,800 short tons in March to 42,700 tons in July (from 12,500 to 38,700 metric tons), and was planned to have continued to increase to around 115,000 short tons (105,000 metric tons) per month.
The firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities is considered a war crime by some. Unlike unrestricted submarine warfare, as no Axis personnel were tried at the post-war war crime trials for participating in the decisions on, or execution of, assault by aerial bombardment on defended enemy territory, no international legal precedent is available to support such a consideration. Unlike the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which were at least partially intended to force Japan to capitulate immediately, fire-bombing, which killed more civilians in total, was carried out as a long-term strategy to destroy Japan's ability to produce war materials as well as undermine the Japanese Government's will to continue the war. In the context of total war, the large number of Japanese civilians killed by strategic bombing was seen as acceptable by the American administration. When reflecting on the campaign after the war, some expressed doubts about the morality of the firebombing. Curtis LeMay later said: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." He felt, however, that his bombings were saving lives by encouraging Japan to surrender earlier. Former Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoe's statement that, fundamentally, the thing that brought about the determination to make peace was the prolonged bombing by the B-29s, lends support to this view.
Tokyo was not considered as an official target for the first nuclear attacks, although Tokyo Bay was apparently examined as a target for a non-lethal demonstration.
Also, as a result of the atomic bombing, Hiroshima began to receive donations of streetcars from all over Japan. (After World War II, Japanese cities—like British ones—were anxious to get rid of their streetcar systems due to damage to the infrastructure, and so there were plenty of streetcars available to give away.) Hiroshima thus rebuilt its streetcar system along with the rest of the city, and thus Hiroshima is the only city in Japan with an extensive streetcar system (although other cities have streetcar lines). Some streetcars that survived the war—and the nuclear attack—were put back into service, and four of these are still running today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima
September 22, 2003
Was World War II American Urban Bombing Democide?
R.J. Rummel
In my Statistics of Democide, Chapter 13 "Death By American Bombing and Other Democide,", I listed American indiscriminate urban bombing of Germany and Japan as democide-murder by government (I include elsewhere in the book such bombing by Britain, Germany, Italy, and Japan). The worst of these democidal bombings was the firebombing of Japanese cities, almost entirely carried out by American bombers, and designed and commanded by General Curtis LeMay. One of his planners was Robert S. McNamara, then a lieutenant colonel, who in the 1960s would become the Secretary of Defense under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COMM.10.5.03.HTM
Incidentally, Jim B., just to make sure I hadn’t fallen asleep in History Class and missed it, I did a Search on “Atom Bomb+Germany”. Maybe the U.S. did drop Atom Bombs on Caucasian Germans and I just missed it. Results follow:
I decided NOT TO PAD MY POST WITH IRRELEVANCIES. I shall add just one comment: It was GERMANY, NOT JAPAN, WHICH WAS WORKING ON THE ATOM BOMB! I knew you would like to know that since it obviously escaped your attention.
This was only a Cursory investigation by Tabacco. I am usually much more thorough, but thoroughness was not required here to refute this DISINGENUOUS PROPAGANDA.
Well, Jim B., I guess I’m not as LAZY as you thought I was. After all it is July 4th.
To my Readers:
This Post was not done to justify Japan’s actions beginning on December 7, 1941. But if you are going to tell people about history, you should be fair and truthful – not propagandist and disingenuous liar. I have attempted to give an accurate account of the facts and a logical conclusion about the true motivations of U.S. leaders during World War II. Racism indeed played a major part in how the U.S. responded to American citizens of Caucasian extraction and American citizens of Oriental extraction.
Incidentally, the U.S. refused to allow Jews, seeking asylum from the Nazis, into the United States during WWII. I guess Caucasian Americans don’t consider Jews equal any more than Nazis did!
The disparity between the actions taken against Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan are obvious to anyone with a brain and a will to learn. Anyone, who cannot see this disparity, is welcome to take his or her potshots at Tabacco. I am ready, willing and ABLE to defend my position that the U.S. response against the Yellow peoples of Japanese ancestry was very different from its response to the Caucasian peoples of Germany. Even the nicknames, applied to the German soldiers, were tame compared to the pejorative ones used to describe the Japanese soldiers. I omit them here so as not to rekindle that War. Please note that those guys (FDR and Truman) were both Democrats. Tabacco is truly “Fair and Balanced”, unlike the Fox Network.
One final comment: You may consider Jews White Caucasians, but I think I’m correct in saying Nazis didn’t consider them equal to the English, French or White Americans. They may outrank “Negroes” and homosexuals (though I doubt it) in Nazi eyes, but there weren’t too many Negroes in Germany in the late 1930s or early 1940s. I think it is safe to assume Jews were ranked on a par with homosexuals in Hitler’s Germany, though there is a great deal of evidence that the Fuhrer himself was of homosexual descent; and Adolf was certainly no Aryan.
All peoples, Caucasoids or not, have always gone to war with each other. Catholic Christians can’t get along with Protestant Christians in Ireland. But if you are Caucasian, you don’t nuke other Caucasians, just colored folks. It’s an Unwritten Rule! Jim B. has attempted to Rewrite and Sanitize History! I will have NONE OF IT!
By the way, where are the TV comedies about American POWs in Japanese prisons (Hogan’s Heroes)? Germans are portrayed as just bumbling “Nice Guys”, not too smart, but definitely not villains. If that show wasn’t an insult to Jews, as well as homosexuals, I don’t know what is.
Incidental Aside to Jim B./PennyCross: What happened to your Post?
http://pennycross.blog-city.com/president_carter_has_no_class.htm
In 1981's 'Body Heat', Kathleen Turner said, "Knowledge is power".
T.A.B.A.C.C.O. (Truth About Business And Congressional Crimes Organization)
Lectures Tabacco About US
History 101 - Do Research Before
You Lecture Tabacco! - RI10
Addendum: Apology
I wrote this apology after I had already completed my Post. So removing the harsh rhetoric would be disingenuous on my part. But if I had it to do over, I would be a lot gentler in my rebuke – but PennyCross deserves a Rebuke for his lack of Research, if nothing else.
I begin by apologizing to Jim B./PennyCross. Jim B. is a Good Guy! Lots of his stuff is Right On Target. Occasionally he is Dead Wrong. This is one of those instances. I am too cross (no pun intended) with him in this Post, but he issued a Direct Challenge to Tabacco with his “Tobacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson.”
Dem’s Fighting Words! If you say it, you’d better be on firm footing. If you are Right, I will apologize and thank you for correcting me. But if you say stuff like
“While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed
I am required to stomp on you like I would an ant or a QuasiCon. If I do it to QuasiCons when they spout BS, I must in good conscience do the same to a basically Good Guy and Liberal. So, with humble apologies to Jim B./PennyCross, “Gentlemen, take your places!”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebuke For Uppityness & Lack of Research
There is no end to BULLSHIT! This is merely the latest entry. And PennyCross aka Jim B. calls it “Tabacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson”.
Jim B./PennyCross objects to Tabacco’s conclusion that the U.S. acted in a racist manner in dropping Nukes on Yellow Japanese and not on Caucasian Germans. Let’s revisit WWII and see what we find.
PennyCross’ Assertion / Tabacco’s Comments on his Blog:
http://pennycross.blog-city.com/
Sunday, 2 July 2006
Amnesty for insurgents that killed American's is wrong
"What’s the difference between Iraqi insurgents and the Germans and Japanese and all the people we’ve forgiven?" Republican Ted Stevens. Could the answer be that those pardons happened after the wars were over?
"For
read more »
Last Updated: Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:14 A GMT-06 :: Comments/Trackback (1-0)
Tabacco made this comment,
Could it be that those people were Caucasian?
The Japanese soon became our 2nd best ally and repudiated having their own military. Japanese certainly admire White Americans and eventually were treated like Europeans.
Since this Terrorist War will NEVER END! Remember, no organization or country can declare the "War is Over!"; therefore it is OK to never give Amnesty to these African or Brown-skinned Islamic peoples. Very clever these Caucasians.
I refer you to the fact that Harry Truman and FDR both deliberately avoided bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki to keep it "pristine". They concentrated on Germany so they wouldn't have to NUKE CAUCASIANS. When the German Surrender was declared, it was a matter of DAYS before they Nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki. All damages could correctly be attributed to the A-Bomb, not prior bombing. If you have a toy like the A-Bomb, you need to deploy it on Human Beings to determine the "Real" damage it can inflict. Mind you, not on Caucasian Human Beings, but yellow Japanese were an acceptable experimentation.
That's why they knocked the Germans out first! Hitler didn't attack Pearl Harbor; the Japanese did! Caucasians can always forgive other Caucasians; but they rarely forgive darker peoples.
Tabacco
comment added :: 2nd July 2006, 10:14 GMT-06 :: http://tabacco.blog-city.com/
PennyCross' Bullshit Excerpt:
The real reason why the bombs were dropped on the Japanese
had little to do with race. The decision was made because the Japanese military had decided to defend the homeland islands to the last man, woman, and child left. A modest estimate made by the American military estimated that if an invasion of Japan was necessary in order to bring about a surrender 1 million American lives, and probably 20 times that number of Japanese civilian lives would have been lost.
Also remember that at the end of the war there were no German cities left to bomb that had not been totally destroyed by the British American and Russian air forces. While
at the same time the Japanese homeland was
unscathed.
I wonder if Jim B. thinks Tabacco is stupid or just lazy (you folks know of course that I am Black; and we all know how lazy Black folks are – Right?)
"While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed."
I guess Jim B. thinks I’m lazy! So on July 4, 2006 I am forced to give Jim B./PennyCross a “REAL HISTORY LESSON 102”. All Jim B. had to do was type into his Browser window “World War II+Japanese Cities+damages” and he could have published this Article without the concomitant REBUKE from Tabacco for his uneducated or disingenuous – take your pick – BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA!
Lesson I: From this Search alone we learn that “67 Japanese cities were firebombed in World War II”. But Jim B. says, “While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed.”
I would love to see where Jim B. gets his history information! Wouldn’t you? On second thought, scratch that. I’m not into scatological research.
So Jim B., answer these 2 questions:
1- How does 67 Japanese cities firebombed by U.S.A. qualify as "unscathed"?
2- How do you account for the fact that a small area country such as Japan had 67 cities firebombed, but 2 and only 2 cities - Hiroshima & Nagasaki - were left "unscathed" so all damages caused by A-bombs could be positively identified? Explain why!
Complete Text of Jim B./PennyCross’ Message to Tabacco:
Tobacco, here is your first WWII History 101 lesson. As an American of European decent (and I might add I am proud of that fact) I do find it deplorable that Japanese Americans were put in concentration camps while German American's were not. There were however thousands of German prisoners of war that were brought to the U.S. and put in concentration camps@. I do feel the incarceration of Japanese Americans was blatant racism in action. That is the only historical rationale I can find for it. In fact the most decorated American Army combat unit in WWII was made up of Japanese Americans fighting oddly enough in Europe. The real reason why the bombs were dropped on the Japanese had little to do with race. The decision was made because the Japanese military had decided to defend the homeland islands to the last man, woman, and child left. A modest estimate made by the American military estimated that if an invasion of Japan was necessary in order to bring about a surrender 1 million American lives, and probably 20 times that number of Japanese civilian lives would have been lost. The American military had just fought it's way through the islands of the pacific culminating with Okinowa in which Japanese civilians by the thousands committed suicide over surrender. And the Japanese military fought to the last man. It was not until after the bombs were dropped with the threat that more would be dropped that the Japanese surrendered. Also remember that at the end of the war there were no German cities left to bomb that had not been totally destroyed by the British American and Russian air forces. While at the same time the Japanese homeland was unscathed. Research the fire-bombing of Dresden to comprehend the destruction of German cities. I find it sad that you interject race into all your analysis. That shows shallow thinking. The causes for WWII were many and they were complicated. Remember that the beginning of the war in the pacific was started when Asians attacked Caucasians at Pearl Harbor. Not the other way around. Until Pearl Harbor America was more than content to let Japan go it's merry way with it's greater Asian co-prosperity league. Japan entered the war because it needed oil and the U.S. threatened to cut off it's oil supply. Once again nothing to do with race. Also remember that the Japanese invaded China, Mongolia, the Phillipines, and our own Alutian Islands among other places, and in doing so slaughtered millions of other Asians. Analyze the rape of Nanking or the sacking of Manila in juxtaposition to your theory about race. Also remember that Germany waged war against other caucasians in Europe as well as the Soviet Union. It's estimated that the war cost the Soviets 10 million men. WWII was fought primarily for land and power. Even if you take into consideration Hitler's genocide aginst European and Soviet Jews the Germans never made an issue of skin color. Jews obviously are white caucasian. Hitler made an issue about German's being a master race superior to other all other races including other caucasians. The reason amnesty for Iraq insurgents is a stupid idea is not because of racial issues. The reason it is a stupid idea, is because it would put thousands of insurgents back into the streets where they will take up arms again against our troops. It would be the equivalent of arming and letting go the thousands of WWII German prisoners of war that we had in U.S. concentration camps. Pretty stupid idea don't you think? After we bring our troops home would be the time for amnesty. Also I hate to break your bubble bubba but the word caucasian that you use with so much disdain is derived from the word caucasoid which means a member of the human race that are light skinned people from Europe, North Africa, eastern Asia, and India. Millions of Arabs also originated from these areas. Gee think they might be caucasians. So much for the race monkey you have on your back.
http://pennycross.blog-city.com/
@ Question: Were “thousands of Japanese prisoners of war that were brought to the U.S. and put in concentration camps”. You have already acknowledged that German-Americans were not subjected to the same insulting behavior we displayed against the Japanese-Americans. I wonder what the difference was? (Aside to Readers: No I don’t wonder!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II
Bombing of Tokyo in World War II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The U.S. bombing of Tokyo during World War II took place between 1942 and 1945.
Early Raids
B-29 bombers were used to drop hundreds of
thousands of tons of explosives onto Japanese
cities during the war.
The first raid on Tokyo was the Doolittle Raid of April 18, 1942 when sixteen B-25 Mitchells were launched from the USS Hornet (CV-8) to attack targets including Yokohama and Tokyo and then fly on to airfields in China. The raids were a significant propaganda victory. Launched prematurely, none of the attacking aircraft reached the designated airfields, either crashing or ditching (except for one aircraft which landed in the Soviet Union, where the crew was interned). Two crews were captured by the Japanese.
The key development for the bombing of Japan was the B-29, which had an operational range of 1500 miles (2,400 km); almost 90% of the bombs dropped on the home islands of Japan were delivered by this type of bomber (147,000 short tons, 133,000 metric tons). The initial raids were carried out by the Twentieth Air Force operating out of mainland China in Operation Matterhorn under XX Bomber Command, but was supplemented in November by the activation of XXI Bomber Command based in the Northern Marianas. The B-29s of XX Bomber Command were transferred to XXI Bomber Command in the spring of 1945 and based on Guam.
The Twentieth Air Force was commanded by directly by Army Air Forces' chief General Henry Arnold to prevent control of strategic airpower from falling under either Nimitz' or MacArthur's command. Arnold, however, had suffered four heart attacks and finally gave over command on July 16, 1945, to General Curtis LeMay. The military services reached a compromise on unity of command issues with the Joint Chiefs (including Arnold) retaining control of the strategic air forces through a new command, the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific, commanded by General Carl Spaatz. LeMay became Spaatz's chief of staff on August 2, 1945, and the Twentieth Air Force was then commanded by Lt.Gen. Nathan Twining.
The first raid by B-29s on Japan came from China on June 15, 1944. The planes took off from Chengdu, over 1500 miles away. This first raid was also not particularly damaging to Japan. Only forty-seven of the sixty-eight B–29s airborne hit the target area; four aborted with mechanical problems, four crashed, six jettisoned their bombs because of mechanical difficulties, and others bombed secondary targets or targets of opportunity. Only one B–29 was lost to enemy aircraft. The first raid from the south was on November 24, 1944 when 88 aircraft bombed Tokyo. The bombs were dropped from around 30,000 feet (10,000 m) and it is estimated that only around 10% of the bombs hit designated targets.
The mainland China option was never a satisfactory arrangement because not only were the Chinese airbases difficult to supply via the Hump from India, but the B-29s operating from them could only reach Japan if they substituted some of the bomb load for extra fuel tanks in the bomb-bays. When Admiral Chester Nimitz's island-hopping campaign captured islands close enough to Japan to be within the range of B-29s, the Twentieth Air Force was assigned to XXI Bomber Command which organized a much more effective bombing campaign of the Japanese home islands. Based in the Marianas (Guam, Saipan, and Tinian) the B-29s were now able to carry their full bomb loads.
As in Europe, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) tried daylight precision bombing. However, it proved to be impossible due to the weather around Japan, as bombs dropped from a great height were tossed about by high winds. General LeMay, commander of XXI Bomber Command, instead switched to mass firebombing night attacks, from altitudes ranging from 5,000 to 7,000 feet, on the major conurbations of Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, and Kobe. Despite limited early success, LeMay was determined to use such bombing tactics against the vulnerable Japanese cities. Attacks on strategic targets also continued in lower-level daylight raids. The most devastating attacks, even more so than the well-known nuclear attacks, were the fire-bombing campaigns against Japanese cities.
Firebombing
Aftermath of the firebombing
The first firebombing raid was on Kobe on February 3, 1945, and following its relative success the USAAF continued the tactic. Japanese cities were susceptible to such attack, but the most favorable conditions for success were areas with few firebreaks and high surface winds. Much of the armor and defensive weaponry of the bombers was also removed to allow increased bomb loads, but ultimately loads were increased by the use of low altitudes for fuel conservation, with individual aircraft bomb loads increasing from 2.6 tons per plane in March to 7.3 tons in August.
The first such raid on Tokyo was on the night of February 23–24 when 174 B-29s destroyed around one square mile (~2.56 km2) of the city. Following on that success 334 B-29s took off from the Mariana Islands on the night of March 9–10 heading for Tokyo. After 2 hours of bombardment the wooden city of Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. These fires were so hot they would literally ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. What was particularly horrifying was a lot of the women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like igniting a wick on a candle to start consuming the flame. The aftermath of the incendiary bombings lead to an estimated 100,000 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devasting single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Around 16 square miles (41 km2) of the city was destroyed in the fire storm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. In the following two weeks there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km2) in total at a cost of 22 aircraft. There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26.
The firebomb raids were not the only raids on Tokyo; there were more regular raids using conventional high explosives. With the capture of Okinawa, the Eighth Air Force was transferred there from Europe and began its own raids. Monthly tonnage dropped on Japan had increased from 13,800 short tons in March to 42,700 tons in July (from 12,500 to 38,700 metric tons), and was planned to have continued to increase to around 115,000 short tons (105,000 metric tons) per month.
The firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities is considered a war crime by some. Unlike unrestricted submarine warfare, as no Axis personnel were tried at the post-war war crime trials for participating in the decisions on, or execution of, assault by aerial bombardment on defended enemy territory, no international legal precedent is available to support such a consideration. Unlike the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which were at least partially intended to force Japan to capitulate immediately, fire-bombing, which killed more civilians in total, was carried out as a long-term strategy to destroy Japan's ability to produce war materials as well as undermine the Japanese Government's will to continue the war. In the context of total war, the large number of Japanese civilians killed by strategic bombing was seen as acceptable by the American administration. When reflecting on the campaign after the war, some expressed doubts about the morality of the firebombing. Curtis LeMay later said: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." He felt, however, that his bombings were saving lives by encouraging Japan to surrender earlier. Former Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoe's statement that, fundamentally, the thing that brought about the determination to make peace was the prolonged bombing by the B-29s, lends support to this view.
Tokyo was not considered as an official target for the first nuclear attacks, although Tokyo Bay was apparently examined as a target for a non-lethal demonstration.
Also, as a result of the atomic bombing, Hiroshima began to receive donations of streetcars from all over Japan. (After World War II, Japanese cities—like British ones—were anxious to get rid of their streetcar systems due to damage to the infrastructure, and so there were plenty of streetcars available to give away.) Hiroshima thus rebuilt its streetcar system along with the rest of the city, and thus Hiroshima is the only city in Japan with an extensive streetcar system (although other cities have streetcar lines). Some streetcars that survived the war—and the nuclear attack—were put back into service, and four of these are still running today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima
September 22, 2003
Was World War II American Urban Bombing Democide?
R.J. Rummel
In my Statistics of Democide, Chapter 13 "Death By American Bombing and Other Democide,", I listed American indiscriminate urban bombing of Germany and Japan as democide-murder by government (I include elsewhere in the book such bombing by Britain, Germany, Italy, and Japan). The worst of these democidal bombings was the firebombing of Japanese cities, almost entirely carried out by American bombers, and designed and commanded by General Curtis LeMay. One of his planners was Robert S. McNamara, then a lieutenant colonel, who in the 1960s would become the Secretary of Defense under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COMM.10.5.03.HTM
Incidentally, Jim B., just to make sure I hadn’t fallen asleep in History Class and missed it, I did a Search on “Atom Bomb+Germany”. Maybe the U.S. did drop Atom Bombs on Caucasian Germans and I just missed it. Results follow:
I decided NOT TO PAD MY POST WITH IRRELEVANCIES. I shall add just one comment: It was GERMANY, NOT JAPAN, WHICH WAS WORKING ON THE ATOM BOMB! I knew you would like to know that since it obviously escaped your attention.
This was only a Cursory investigation by Tabacco. I am usually much more thorough, but thoroughness was not required here to refute this DISINGENUOUS PROPAGANDA.
WARNING TO ALL WOULD-BE TEACHERS OF HISTORY TO TABACCO:
Before you can teach Tabacco a History
Lesson, you had better do some HISTORICAL
RESEARCH FIRST!
Lesson, you had better do some HISTORICAL
RESEARCH FIRST!
Well, Jim B., I guess I’m not as LAZY as you thought I was. After all it is July 4th.
A Happy Manumission Day to
One and All!
One and All!
To my Readers:
This Post was not done to justify Japan’s actions beginning on December 7, 1941. But if you are going to tell people about history, you should be fair and truthful – not propagandist and disingenuous liar. I have attempted to give an accurate account of the facts and a logical conclusion about the true motivations of U.S. leaders during World War II. Racism indeed played a major part in how the U.S. responded to American citizens of Caucasian extraction and American citizens of Oriental extraction.
Incidentally, the U.S. refused to allow Jews, seeking asylum from the Nazis, into the United States during WWII. I guess Caucasian Americans don’t consider Jews equal any more than Nazis did!
The disparity between the actions taken against Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan are obvious to anyone with a brain and a will to learn. Anyone, who cannot see this disparity, is welcome to take his or her potshots at Tabacco. I am ready, willing and ABLE to defend my position that the U.S. response against the Yellow peoples of Japanese ancestry was very different from its response to the Caucasian peoples of Germany. Even the nicknames, applied to the German soldiers, were tame compared to the pejorative ones used to describe the Japanese soldiers. I omit them here so as not to rekindle that War. Please note that those guys (FDR and Truman) were both Democrats. Tabacco is truly “Fair and Balanced”, unlike the Fox Network.
One final comment: You may consider Jews White Caucasians, but I think I’m correct in saying Nazis didn’t consider them equal to the English, French or White Americans. They may outrank “Negroes” and homosexuals (though I doubt it) in Nazi eyes, but there weren’t too many Negroes in Germany in the late 1930s or early 1940s. I think it is safe to assume Jews were ranked on a par with homosexuals in Hitler’s Germany, though there is a great deal of evidence that the Fuhrer himself was of homosexual descent; and Adolf was certainly no Aryan.
All peoples, Caucasoids or not, have always gone to war with each other. Catholic Christians can’t get along with Protestant Christians in Ireland. But if you are Caucasian, you don’t nuke other Caucasians, just colored folks. It’s an Unwritten Rule! Jim B. has attempted to Rewrite and Sanitize History! I will have NONE OF IT!
By the way, where are the TV comedies about American POWs in Japanese prisons (Hogan’s Heroes)? Germans are portrayed as just bumbling “Nice Guys”, not too smart, but definitely not villains. If that show wasn’t an insult to Jews, as well as homosexuals, I don’t know what is.
Incidental Aside to Jim B./PennyCross: What happened to your Post?
http://pennycross.blog-city.com/president_carter_has_no_class.htm
In 1981's 'Body Heat', Kathleen Turner said, "Knowledge is power".
T.A.B.A.C.C.O. (Truth About Business And Congressional Crimes Organization)
comments (1)
1. Briggs left...
I admire this guy, who can laugh in the face of adversity. Readers: Visit http://www.leftwinglaughs.blog-city.com/american_history.htm It's worth the trip. Tabacco
Wednesday, 5 July 2006 1:14 am :: http://www.leftwinglaughs.blog-city.com/
Impressive work! Too much history coming out of eigth grade, xenophobic,
Americans-wear-white-hats history books. So tempting for so many to believe
the victor's version -- how else do they justify "slavery was good for
black people" or "Christianity was good for Native Americans?" I may have
to read this a second time when I have an hour to kill...
I admire this guy, who can laugh in the face of adversity. Readers: Visit http://www.leftwinglaughs.blog-city.com/american_history.htm It's worth the trip. Tabacco