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Dennis Kucinich & Howard Zinn Speak: Why We Must Impeach Cheney Instead Of Vote Counting, Truth Not Lies, Risk Taking Not Cowardice - We Challenge Pelosi & Conyers To Stand Up & Be Counted! - RI10
Dennis Kucinich &
Howard Zinn Speak:
Why We Must
Impeach Cheney
Instead Of Vote
Counting, Truth Not
Lies, Risk Taking
Not Cowardice -
We Challenge Pelosi
& Conyers To Stand
Up & Be Counted! -
RI10
Rep. Dennis Kucinich: Effort to Impeach Vice President Cheney Still Alive
Friday, November 9th, 2007
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455244
On Tuesday, Dennis Kucinich nearly forced the full House to vote on his measure to impeach Cheney. House Resolution 333 accuses Cheney of deliberately manipulating intelligence and deceiving the public to build support for the invasion of Iraq and now towards a possible attack on Iran. [includes rush transcript]
Despite the best efforts of the Democratic leadership, impeachment was indeed on the table this week in Washington. On Tuesday, Congressmember and presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich nearly forced the full House to vote on his measure to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney. House Resolution 333 accuses Cheney of deliberately manipulating intelligence and deceiving the public to build support for the invasion of Iraq and now towards a possible attack on Iran. Twenty-one House Democrats have supported the bill, but it's met fierce opposition from the Democratic leadership.
Democratic leaders were able to send the bill to the House Judiciary Committee, where they expect it to languish. In a bizarre sequence, Republican lawmakers initially voted against tabling the bill after their leadership apparently decided a House debate would embarrass the Democrats. The bill was eventually sent to committee after a back-and-forth wrangling between Kucinich and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer.
Democratic leaders have famously declared that impeachment is off the table. But their view does not fall in line with recent polling figures. An American Research Group poll in July found that fifty-four percent of Americans support beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Cheney. Seventy-four percent of Democrats were also in favor.
Congressmember, Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, introduced the measure. He joins me now from Washington.
* Rep. Dennis Kucinich, Ohio Congressman and Democratic presidential candidate. Introduced House measure to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney.
RUSH TRANSCRIPT
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...
JUAN GONZALEZ: Despite the best efforts of the Democratic leadership, impeachment was indeed on the table this week in Washington. On Tuesday, Congress member and presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich nearly forced the full House to vote on his measure to impeach Vice President Dick Cheney. House Resolution 333 accuses Cheney of deliberately manipulating intelligence and deceiving the public to build support for the invasion of Iraq and now towards a possible attack on Iran. Twenty-one House Democrats have supported the bill, but it's met fierce opposition from the Democratic leadership.
Democratic leaders were able to send the bill to the House Judiciary Committee, where they expect it to languish. In a bizarre sequence, Republican lawmakers initially voted against tabling the bill after their leadership apparently decided a House debate would embarrass the Democrats. The bill was eventually sent to committee after a back-and-forth wrangling between Kucinich and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer.
AMY GOODMAN: Democratic leaders have famously declared impeachment is off the table. But their view does not fall in line with recent polling figures. An American Research Group poll in July found 54% of Americans support beginning impeachment proceedings against Vice President Cheney. 74% of Democrats were also in favor.
Tabacco: Even Democrats don’t know who Dennis Kucinich is. He’s the best-kept secret of the 2008 presidential election. Democratic leaders are not embarrassed by Kucinich; they know his leadership could spell the end of lobbying, outsourcing, wars for profit, Earmarks, graft & corruption not only for Republicans but for Democrats. They don’t want Dennis Kucinich to be president. If Dennis gets the impeachment vote submitted to the entire House, win or lose he becomes a secret no longer. Do you think Hillary wants to run in primaries against a Democrat, who truly is anti-war! I think not. What Hillary wants, Hillary gets. As I asked my Readers in a prior Post, “What if a Democrat gets elected president in 2008 and nothing changes!”
Lou Dobbs wants everybody to register as that nondescript category “Independent”. If we all do that, who can stop Giuliani, McCain, Clinton or Obama in the Republican or Democratic Parties respectively? We would cede the Republican Party to the Rapture Right and the Democratic Party to those without a plan or moral imperative: basically we cede the Democratic Party to Hillary Clinton.
In so doing Lou Dobbs is performing the role of Judas Goat! Becoming Independent leaves you powerless to affect PRIMARIES! Yet Dobbs’ viewers think he’s the best thing since sliced bread. And they dump on Hillary for trying to be “all things to all people”! Tabacco voted Green Party in the New York Senatorial election last year against Hillary Clinton. But I would not give up my voice in the Democratic Party today – next year? Who knows!
Tell me this: how many Senators and Representatives are “Independent”? What is an Independent anyway? I will tell you! Joe Lieberman, the Senate pariah, ran in 2006 as an “Independent” after being defeated in the Democratic Primary. The Republican candidate in Connecticut got 4% of the vote. Independent Lieberman is really a Republican masquerading as a Democrat-Independent. I predicted he would win the Senate election in 2006, and he did! That pro wrestler ran for governor of Minnesota and won. But he’s no longer governor. Ross Perot ran for president as an “Independent”. Most Independent leaders are Republican, not Democrat.
Now picture this: an Independent candidate for president runs for president in 2008 and wins. Now which party does he caucus with? Democrats? Republicans? Many “Independents” are Republicans in sheep’s clothing. How do we possibly achieve change by electing another Republican, even if he or she runs under that ambivalent banner “Independent”? Wake up, people!
I know a Green Party candidate cannot win in 2008. But I guarantee you won’t find many Republicans masquerading as “GREEN”! Knowing that, there is only one Democrat we should support –
No Republican candidate will look out for your best interests. And Democrat, Mike Gravel, wants to institute the “FairTax”. I have already posted about that Crap-Trap. Gravel also thinks that Outsourcing is NOT A PROBLEM (Gravel’s words, not mine). Edwards can win, but can he be trusted. I guarantee you that we cannot trust either Hillary or Barack. They will serve their military-industrial masters, sit back and rake in their personal profits just as George W. Bush is doing now. And Clinton or Obama will continue the Wars for Profit initiated by GWB.
Congressmember Dennis Kucinich of Ohio introduced the measure. The presidential candidate joins us now from Washington, D.C. We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Congressman Kucinich.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Good morning. Good morning, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain exactly what you did this week.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: The articles of impeachment that were introduced under a privileged resolution cite the Vice President's persistent lies relating to Iraq. He claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that necessitated the US response. He claimed that Iraq somehow was connected to al-Qaeda's role in 9/11. He has been beating the drums for war against Iran. Those are the elements of the articles of impeachment that were introduced into the House this week.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And why introduce your resolution in regards to Vice President Cheney and not to President Bush?
Tabacco: The smartest move the Republicans made was putting Cheney on the bottom of the GOP ticket. What fool would attempt to assassinate Bush with Cheney in waiting! The same applies to impeachment. Even Dennis Kucinich is not so gung-ho that he would impeach Bush first, leaving the Oval Office to Tricky Dick Cheney!
AMY GOODMAN: Explain the leadership's position and why you chose to do what you did this week.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: I think it’s very difficult to explain their position, because I don’t think their position is defensible. I think when you consider that our whole nation is at risk, our constitutional form of government has been undermined by lies, by illegal war, by massive debt, how can you explain the position of Democratic leaders?
JUAN GONZALEZ: What do you say to those who will argue that even though they may agree with you on a lot of your concerns, that the impeachment process itself would drag out for so long that it may as well -- people should just move forward toward the elections and elect a new president?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Right, well, you think about that. You know, the administration will be in office for at least fourteen more months. They can cause a lot of damage in that time. They’re planning to attack Iran. When you think about the defense authorization budget including a provision that would retrofit Stealth B-2 bombers so they can carry 30,000-pound bombs, which would then be dropped on nuclear research labs, creating an humanitarian and ecological disaster, “What are we waiting for?” is the question, not “Why don’t we wait for the election?”
AMY GOODMAN: The other argument that the leadership has used is that they’re concerned about losing in a landslide vote against them, that that is bad strategically, Congressman Kucinich.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Since when does
it become unfashionable to stand up for
Constitution, to stand up for our nation's
laws, to stand up for international law, to
stand up for moral law? Since when does it
become inconvenient to take a stand that
would help secure our democracy once
again?
I mean, we’re really -- it’s all at risk right now, and it’s time that the Democratic leadership exerted an effective influence. As a coequal branch of government, Congress cannot stand by and let this administration continue to undermine our Constitution. That’s why I introduced those articles of impeachment.
AMY GOODMAN: What happens now? Is it over?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Not at all. I mean, Representative Wexler, who’s a member of the committee, sent a note to the members of the committee two days ago saying that we ought to proceed with hearings. Members have been talking to John Conyers on a regular basis since the impeachment resolution was introduced, asking him to take this up, and I’m hopeful that he will.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you feel Conyers has changed his position from, when he was in the minority, calling for impeachment, and then, when he became head of the House Judiciary Committee, stepping back with pressure from the House leadership?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: I think John Conyers wants to do the right thing, and I’m hopeful that he will.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Congressman, I’d like to ask you, on another matter, a vote this week in Congress over the Peru free trade bill. Many Democrats supported the administration position on this. You’ve been outspoken in your opposition to many of these free trade agreements. Your perspective on this vote?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: It’s a disaster for the people of Peru. It’s a disaster for farmers whose land is being poisoned by gold mining and the cyanide that’s used in that process. And American workers have absolutely no protection about jobs being moved out of this country. It’s basically a modeling of NAFTA sent to Peru. This is really a continuation of the stripping of rights of peoples of both nations. And a reason why NAFTA has to be canceled -- and I’ve said that I would do that as President -- that we must get out of the WTO -- I said that I would withdraw from the WTO -- and to have trade that is wholly and solely based on workers' rights, human rights and environmental quality principles. And it’s time that we recognize that this whole trade model has been about nothing but a race to the bottom for workers. It’s time we stood up for workers, no matter if they’re in Peru or anywhere else in the world, but certainly in the United States. We should have some concern about what the effect of these trade agreements are on American workers.
Tabacco: Beginning to see why Tabacco supports Dennis Kucinich! Now try to imagine Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama saying publicly or instituting as president the comments in the previous paragraph! You can’t!
AMY GOODMAN: Congressman Kucinich, you are head of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, which has oversight over the FCC. Today in Seattle, there is going to be the last of the FCC hearings, as Kevin Martin, the chair, wants to expedite media consolidation. He says perhaps they’ll be taking a vote around December 18th. What control do you have over this?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, as the chairman of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, I can and will hold hearings on the FCC's decision-making process. I think that we are in a time when media consolidation is having a material and adverse impact on our exercise of First Amendment rights in a democratic society. The public may be largely unaware that the electronic media are regulated because the airwaves belong to the people. And the Federal Communications Act of 1934 said that the electronic broadcast media must serve in the public interest, convenience and necessity. And the more monopolization that happens, the less likely it is that the public interest is going to be protected. So there is a long and historic train here of thought that says that media consolidation is a danger to our democracy and that, notwithstanding what the FCC does, Congress should intervene to block any effort that would enable further media consolidation.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And the argument of those who say that the advances, the technological advances in communications, the development of the internet, basically has made -- outmoded a lot of the regulations that the FCC operates now to regulate media ownership.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: There’s a lot of people who think the Constitution is outmoded, too. I think that when we realize the concentration of wealth in our society has accelerated wealth to the top, the concentration of information in our society and control over information accelerates the intellectual wealth of the country and the First Amendment rights of the country into the hands of fewer and fewer.
You know, A.J. Liebling years ago famously said freedom of the press belongs to the man who owns one. But when you’re talking about electronic broadcast media, the people own the airwaves. I mean, that is the fundamental understanding that the American people should have. Those airwaves do not belong to those networks or to those big media companies. The airwaves belong to the public, and they're supposed to serve in the public interest.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Congressmember Dennis Kucinich, not only a Congress member from Ohio, but Democratic presidential candidate. I wanted to ask you about the issue of exclusion of presidential candidates from various debates, most recently Mike Gravel, the former Alaska senator. You weren’t invited to the Democratic Party’s Jefferson Jackson dinner in Des Moines, that the six other Democratic contenders are; your response?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, it’s pretty interesting when you consider the fact that I’ve been running consistently fourth in a number of national polls, Tabacco: Even Tabacco didn’t know that! ahead of three of the candidates who have been invited. So what does that say? It says that there’s an attempt to rig the presidential election, using the Iowa Democratic Party as an accomplice. That’s not acceptable. This election doesn’t belong to one state or, for that matter, to one party. And so, you know, look of the national polls, and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
Amy, while we’re still on the air, there’s something I want to mention to you that I think is really important. Last night I was reading the Defense Authorization Bill, and there is a section in the bill that I want to read to you: Section 1615 requires the Secretary of Defense to, one, “determine the military-unique capabilities needed to be provided by the Department of Defense to support civil authorities in an incident of national significance or a catastrophic incident”. And then it goes on to say provide funds to develop a plan. What’s going on in this country? How can we stand by and see our basic liberties undermined?
AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Congressmember Dennis Kucinich in Washington, D.C., running for president. I wanted to ask you about the comment you made during one of the presidential debates, that issue of seeing an unidentified flying object. Can you explain what it is that you saw?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, first of all, you know, I was kind of taken aback when I was asked that question, but I understand in Washington the truth is an unidentified flying object, so I guess I could admit that I saw something, found out later that Ronald Reagan on two occasions was said to have seen a UFO, that Jimmy Carter was said to have seen a UFO. So I’m assuming that now becomes a prerequisite for becoming President of the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Final comment on media coverage right now of the presidential race that you’re a part of.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, you know, I mean, the New York Times has yet to discover that I’m a candidate. I could -- if I suddenly catch fire in New Hampshire, where we’re running fourth and closing in on third place, I would imagine that I could even win the election, and the New York Times would have a big story about second, third, and fourth place and fail to mention that I won.
There is an attempt by the media to manage this election, to try to determine the outcome of the election prior to the people casting votes. It’s just another way to try to defeat the public interest and to make of the election a kind of a farce.
I realize I’m a long shot. I don’t have any delusions about that. But I also know that right now democracy is a long shot in America, and I realize that our constitutional protections are kind of a long shot. So I’m willing to take that stand, and I think that the people of New Hampshire are going to have an opportunity to append the political process by voting for my candidacy, which will give them a chance to have a voice and a consistent supporter, not just of peace and workers' rights and healthcare for all, but of the basic constitutional principles that brought us together to form a nation so many years ago.
AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember Kucinich, I want to thank you very much for being with us, Congress member from Ohio and Democratic presidential candidate.
Howard Zinn's "Rebel Voices" Opens in New York
Friday, November 9th, 2007
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455254
The new play "Rebel Voices" is based on the book, "Voices of a People's History of the United States" by historian Howard Zinn and Anthony Arnove. It features dramatic readings of speeches, letters, poems, songs and petitions of people like Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, as well as contemporary voices such as Iraq war resister Camilo Mejía. [includes rush transcript]
That was Allison Moorer singing, "A Change is Gonna Come". She was performing the song at the Culture Project here in New York, where she is taking part in a new play opening tomorrow night. It's called "Rebel Voices", and it's based on the book "Voices of a People's History of the United States" by historian Howard Zinn and Anthony Arnove. It is the companion volume to Zinn’s legendary “People’s History of the United States”, which has sold over one and a half million copies.
"Rebel Voices" features dramatic readings of speeches, letters, poems, songs and petitions. They are the words of people throughout U.S. history who have struggled against slavery, racism, war and oppression, people like Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, as well as contemporary voices such as Iraq war resister Camilo Mejía and Patricia Thompson, a survivor of Hurricane Katrina.
Past performances of "Voices of a People's History of the United States" have featured acclaimed actors, musicians and activists. Here is actor Kerry Washington reading the words of Sojourner Truth, Danny Glover reading John Lewis, and Sandra Oh reading Emma Goldman.
* "Voices of a People's History of the United States" featuring Kerry Washington reading the words of Sojourner Truth, Danny Glover reading John Lewis, and Sandra Oh reading Emma Goldman.
Howard Zinn joins us now from Boston. He is a Professor Emeritus at Boston University and author of the classic work "A People's History of the United States".
* Howard Zinn historian and author of many books, including "A People's History of the United States". The book has been adapted into a new play, "Rebel Voices", opening at the Culture Project in New York tomorrow.
RUSH TRANSCRIPT
This transcript is available free of charge. However, donations help us provide closed captioning for the deaf and hard of hearing on our TV broadcast. Thank you for your generous contribution.
Donate - $25, $50, $100, more...
JUAN GONZALEZ: That was Allison Moorer singing, "A Change is Gonna Come". She was performing the song at the Culture Project here in New York, where she is taking part in a new play opening tomorrow night. It's called Rebel Voices, and it's based on the book, “Voices of a People's History of the United States”, by historian Howard Zinn and Anthony Arnove. It is the companion volume to Zinn’s legendary “People’s History of the United States”, which has sold over one and a half million copies.
Rebel Voices features dramatic readings of speeches, letters, poems, songs and petitions. They are the words of people throughout US history who have struggled against slavery, racism, war and oppression, people like Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, as well as contemporary voices such as Iraq war resister Camilo Mejía and Patricia Thompson, a survivor of Hurricane Katrina.
AMY GOODMAN: Past performances of Voices of a People's History of the United States have featured acclaimed actors, musicians and activists. This is Kerry Washington reading the words of Sojourner Truth, Danny Glover reading John Lewis, Sandra Oh reading Emma Goldman.
SANDRA OH (reading Emma Goldman): We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. Our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that it will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations. Such is the logic of patriotism.
KERRY WASHINGTON (reading Sojourner Truth): Look at me. Look at my arm. I have plowed and planted and gathered into barns, and no man could head me. And ain’t I a woman?
DANNY GLOVER (reading John Lewis): To those who have said, "Be patient and wait", we must say that patience is a dirty and nasty word. We cannot be patient. We do not want to be free gradually. We want our freedom, and we want it now. We cannot depend on any political party, for both the Democrats and Republicans have betrayed the basic principles of the Declaration of Independence.
We won’t stop now. All the forces of Eastland, Barnett, Wallace, and Thurmond won’t stop the revolution. The time will come when we will not confine our marching to Washington. We will march through the South, through the heart of Dixie, the way Sherman did. We shall pursue our own "scorched earth" policy and burn Jim Crow to the ground.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Danny Glover performing as John Lewis and Emma Goldman performed by Sandra Oh, Sojourner Truth by Kerry Washington.
Howard Zinn joins us now from Boston, Professor Emeritus at Boston University, author of People's History of the United States. Welcome to Democracy Now! How does it feel to have your work performed on the stage here in New York, Professor Zinn?
HOWARD ZINN: Well, it feels good to listen to Kerry Washington and Sandra Oh and Danny Glover speak the words of figures, who have been marginalized in the traditional history books. You won’t find Emma Goldman getting much attention in conventional histories. And the talk she gave on patriotism, which you heard Sandra Oh speak, that talk she gave on patriotism in the early part of the twentieth century is something that is so relevant to what is going on today. Emma Goldman spoke against war and against militarism.
And to hear Kerry Washington read the words of Sojourner Truth -- “And ain’t I a woman?” -- that’s something that everybody in one way or another can say: “Ain't I a person? Don’t I deserve to live?” That’s something GIs over in Iraq can say. That’s something the Iraqis themselves can say. “Don't we have a right to be considered human beings?”
So I’m very happy that there in New York the Culture Project is putting on stage actors who will read the words of historic figures -- Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, Cindy Sheehan -- people who are not going to be heard in the mainstream press or in the mainstream history books, but whose words are so vital and so pertinent to what we face today.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And the importance of these voices of resistance at a time when -- of resurrecting them at a time when so much accommodation is occurring to what the United States is involved in around the world, even among many right here in our own country?
HOWARD ZINN: The word “accommodation” brings to mind the Democratic Party, which was voted into power in Congress in 2006 and which has shown us a pitiful example of what an opposition party should be, accommodating itself basically to the Bush and Republican agenda, accommodating itself to the sort of orthodox political notion that you must be timid and quiet and not speak the truth.
And the advantage of bringing back these historical figures is that these people give us an example. They spoke the truth no matter what. They took chances; they took risks. And so, we need to listen to them and to be inspired by them and to have us realize that wherever we are, whatever walk of life we are, our job is to speak loudly, to speak boldly, to tell the truth, and with the idea that the truth has a power which is very special, and if people keep uttering the truth, the idea will spread and a power will be created that even those who hold the reins in Washington, whether the Democrats or Republicans, will have to listen.
AMY GOODMAN: Howard Zinn, we began today’s show with Congressmember Dennis Kucinich, who has been trying to force the issue of impeachment, wanting to start with the impeachment of Vice President Dick Cheney. The Democratic leadership is fighting hard to stop it from coming to the House. Your thoughts on that issue as an historian and an American?
HOWARD ZINN: I believe that impeachment is an issue that should be raised all over the country. If Congress and the Democrats are too timid to raise it, then it should be done in grassroots meetings all over the country. I understand at least thirty or forty town meetings in Vermont have called for impeachment, that local groups in various parts of the country have called for it. It’s the kind of situation that we faced on the eve of the revolution against England, where the colonial officials were not going to lead a fight against England, and so people gathered in various towns in the colonies, and they formed committees of correspondence, and they brought up the issue of independence.
We need to bring up the issue of
impeachment, because when you bring up
the issue of impeachment, whether it
succeeds or not -- I mean, the idea of
counting votes to see whether you're going
to win an impeachment misses the point.
To bring up impeachment would excite the
country, because it would force a
discussion on all the most fundamental
issues on the war, on civil liberties, on the
stealing of the people’s money to pay for
the war and to enrich the rich.
Impeachment would excite the country.
And if the people in the leadership of the
Democratic Party don’t realize it, then the
rest of us should try to make them realize
it.
I applaud Dennis Kucinich for bringing it up. I hope that John Conyers, who is head of the Judiciary Committee and who at one time showed signs of being a true progressive and a leader of and person of courage, I wish that John Conyers would stop playing with Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic policy of conciliation and caution. And John Conyers, as head of the Judiciary Committee, could hold hearings and start the ball rolling on impeachment. I think everybody who is listening to this broadcast, everybody should write, talk, email their congressman, email John Conyers, and demand that they begin the impeachment process against Cheney, against Bush. I think it would galvanize the energy of the country in a good direction.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Howard Zinn, I’d like to ask about an issue that is increasingly dividing many Americans and ask for your historical perspective on it. A year and a half ago, the nation was rocked by massive demonstrations of immigrants across the country. Millions of people poured into the streets, some of the largest protests in American history, over the issue of legalization of the undocumented here in this country. And now many Republicans are seeking to make this a major issue in the coming presidential elections. Many Democrats seem to be hiding on the issue or not dealing with it. Your response to how immigration has been used, and immigrant scapegoating in the past, in American history?
HOWARD ZINN: It goes way back. I mean, how ironic, since we are a nation of immigrants, right? There are the Native Americans, and there are all the rest of us who are immigrants. And every immigrant coming here after an earlier wave of immigrants is looked upon as a foreigner. The idea of an “illegal immigrant” does not make sense. It is not a human way to approach people.
And we have gone through anti- immigrant waves at the turn of the seventeenth century -- that is, at the end of the eighteenth century, end of the seventeenth century. We’ve gone through the periods of anti-immigrant feeling, the Alien Sedition Acts of 1798. And then we went through the anti-Irish feeling of the 1830s and 1840s. And then when the Europeans from Eastern and Southern Europe began coming in, we faced anti-immigration, anti-immigrant feelings in this country. And they are all odious, because they are anti-human.
Tabacco: As wise as Zinn is, even he has lost contact on this issue. Every nation must have laws and limitations. Otherwise it would be like New Delhi, overpopulated and dirt-poor. This isn’t about semantics, it’s about capitalists practicing “Disaster Capitalism” and recruiting dirt-poor “foreigners” to do their dirty bidding and fight their capitalist wars for them. This is not about immigrants and “aliens”. And I hate to be the pragmatist in the room, particularly a conservative pragmatist, but who’s going to pay for 20 million poor people?
The signs I remember carrying in those demonstrations, they were talking about -- the signs said, “No human being is illegal”. That’s how we should look upon the situation. And if all people are created equal, then that applies to wherever you are born, whatever border you have crossed. And I think we ought to begin speaking boldly, and the Democratic Party is shameful in its timidity on this issue. And I hope we won’t forget that immigrants are human beings, and legal, illegal, or wherever you were born, once you are here in this country, you deserve the same rights as everybody else.
AMY GOODMAN: In a historical perspective, Howard Zinn, on this privatization of war that we’re seeing, you just heard the conversation about Blackwater, more on more killings in Iraq.
HOWARD ZINN: Well, privatization on a
scale that we are seeing it now is really
new. We’ve always had corporate power
involved in war. There’s always been
profiteering in war. The J.P. Morgan
Company made huge amounts of money in
war. Great fortunes were made in the Civil
War. And in World War II, again, there was
money made in World War II, even while
men were dying over in Europe & in Asia.
But we’ve never seen privatization and
corporate profit on such a scale as we are
seeing now in the wars in Afghanistan and
Iraq. I mean, this is a capitalism run wild,
what a recent Pope actually -- I think it
was Pope John Paul -- called savage
unbridled capitalism. And it’s time for us to
look not just at Blackwater and the current
phenomenon, but look at the whole idea of
an economy and a society which is based
on pleasing the corporations & giving the
corporations as much money as they want,
to the detriment of everybody else. We
must take a good look.
AMY GOODMAN: Howard Zinn, we have to leave it there, but I thank you very much for joining us. The play Rebel Voices opens this weekend in New York at the Culture Project. Many will be performing in that on a rotating basis, including Ally Sheedy and Danny Glover and Eve Ensler and others.
Tabacco: I consider myself both a funnel and a filter. I funnel information, not readily available on the Mass Media, which is ignored and/or suppressed. I filter out the irrelevancies and trivialities to save both the time and effort of my Readers and bring consternation to the enemies of Truth & Fairness! When you read Tabacco, if you don’t learn something NEW, I’ve wasted your time.
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